Whey Protein And Msg Options

[tater_chip]

Due to the recent email from OCA covering MSG, I was very alarmed to learn that whey protein, especially in isolate and hydrolyzed form are basically forms of this substance. I just puchased Solgar "Whey to go" at my local health store, Mount Hope Foods. Does anyone know the relationship/safety of whey protein powders, since they are associated with MSG?

[tater_chip]

Due to the recent email from OCA covering MSG, I was very alarmed to learn that whey protein, especially in isolate and hydrolyzed form are basically forms of this substance. I just puchased Solgar "Whey to go" at my local health store, Mount Hope Foods. Does anyone know the relationship/safety of whey protein powders, since they are associated with MSG?

I got a phone call today from Solgar. They told me that their processes do not create MSG because they use no sodium. So even though free forms of glutamic amino acids are in the formula, there is nothing for them to bind with to make the dangerous form of MSG. Now this may not be the case with cheap formulas widely available. In my opinion, I would check for sodium content on the nutrition label. If it has sodium, it could bind with the glutamic acids and form MSG unintentionally. At any rate, it is something to watch our for when buying protein powder. This rule of thumb can actually apply to other protein powders as well - not just whey. You must watch out for it in soy especially, but it may also be in pea protein powder.....

[Cathe]

I got a phone call today from Solgar. They told me that their processes do not create MSG because they use no sodium. So even though free forms of glutamic amino acids are in the formula, there is nothing for them to bind with to make the dangerous form of MSG. Now this may not be the case with cheap formulas widely available. In my opinion, I would check for sodium content on the nutrition label. If it has sodium, it could bind with the glutamic acids and form MSG unintentionally. At any rate, it is something to watch our for when buying protein powder. This rule of thumb can actually apply to other protein powders as well - not just whey. You must watch out for it in soy especially, but it may also be in pea protein powder.....

What about nutritional yeast flakes . . . we're getting into quite a discussion when I posted your MSG info on my blog at http://catheolson.blogspot.com Frontier Brand says they are MSG free but I can't find info about Red Star which is what I use. Another poster said the sodium doesn't matter -- that the free glutamic acids are the problem alone. I can't seem to find any definitive info on this.

[metopt]

I got a phone call today from Solgar. They told me that their processes do not create MSG because they use no sodium. So even though free forms of glutamic amino acids are in the formula, there is nothing for them to bind with to make the dangerous form of MSG. Now this may not be the case with cheap formulas widely available. In my opinion, I would check for sodium content on the nutrition label. If it has sodium, it could bind with the glutamic acids and form MSG unintentionally. At any rate, it is something to watch our for when buying protein powder. This rule of thumb can actually apply to other protein powders as well - not just whey. You must watch out for it in soy especially, but it may also be in pea protein powder.....

I'd love to see actual studies on this, that MSG is different in effect than glutamic acid and other mineral glutamates once it is ingested. I doubt it, but nature is complex so I'd like actual empirical evidence. The doubt comes from the following academic/theoretical [below that is about detoxifying glutamate in the body]:

The pKa of the carboxylic acid ends of glutamic are such that at gut pHs they are deprotonated, thus glutamic acid becomes glutamate (anion).

Sodium glutamate like most sodium salts probably easily dissociates in water, e.g. the water lumen of the gut, becoming sodium cation and glutamate anion.

Ionized salts, e.g. sodium chloride, potassium chloride, and, I propose sodium glutamate, exist in watery solutions as only loosely associated forms, if that -- the cations and anions floating around in solution, one moment a potassium is near any particular chloride, another moment sodium, one moment the potassium is near chloride, another near glutamate.

The body wants to absorb minerals, wants to absorb amino acids, and has various ways of doing this.

Digestive juices already have a fair amount of sodium (and other cations) in them, so glutamic acid that is swallowed becomes glutamate becomes sodium or other mineral glutamate (if you can call freely floating soup of ions a mineral salt).

Attaching a mineral to an amino acid is particularly helpful for absorbing minerals that are fairly hard to absorb, e.g. calcium and magnesium. Sodium and other low atomic weight, and very electropositive (very willing to become cations), minerals are rather easily absorbed, without such "two for one" maneuvers.

And all the above applies when glutamate or MSG is in the blood or other extracellular fluid or intracellular fluid.

Literature I've read about the toxic effects of glutamate after brain injury (e.g. glutamate released by cells after stroke) say "glutamate", not "MSG", because of all the above.

So isn't our concern the glutamate/glutamic acid content of foods and other ingestibles, not the MSG content?

***

Glutamic acid/glutamate are a part of natural, unadulterated food also, not just found in processing and food additives. It is part of the amino acid profile of most proteins, is part of muscle, connective tissue, liver, etc, and is the main component of the meaty/umami taste. E.g. it's in mushrooms and tomatoes.

We also synthesize in our bodies glutamic acid/glutamate because it is part of the array of messenger molecules we use and it is a part of functional and structural proteins.

We have metabolic pathways to decrease it, e.g. the infamous GOT enzyme that is measured in blood, that usually comes from liver cells leaking or dying. GOT and other glutamate-metabolizing enzymes/pathways are elsewhere too. They depend, among other things, but very key, on bioactive pyridoxine (P5P = PLP = pyridoxal 5 phosphate).

The conversion of ingested (and absorbed) vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) into P5P is very much a magnesium dependent pathway. Most of us, without supplementation, are magnesium deficient, especially if you do the ideal, but not readily available, magnesium loading test.

The Caucasian gene pool has a glitch in the kinetics of bioactivating B6 -- B6 is bioactivated less rapidly, only at higher concentrations of ingredients. Thus the Caucasian gene pool is more prone to Chinese Restaurant Syndrome than the Asian gene pool. That's just one sign of who is detoxifying/deactivating/metabolizing glutamic acid/glutamate better and thus less prone to the toxic effects of unwanted amounts of that floating around.

Of course, we shouldn't force our body to deal with ingested toxins -- general trend in health maintenance -- however we can also make sure B6 is bioactivated (enough B6 coming in, enough magnesium).

[OhZone]

Definitive info?
From http://truthinlabeling.org

"Food grade MSG may be 98.7% L-glutamic acid -- (1.3% contaminants)"

And this from
http://www.carbohydrateaddicts.com/msg.html

"Free glutamates appear to cause similar problems to MSG. You may be surprised to find that free glutamate is found in so many foods and food additives. You may think that something that say "no msg" is safe and that you don't have to worry about free glutamate. You cannot be further from the truth for, and this is an important note: food packagers, now catching on to the fact that consumers want to avoid MSG, are adding free glutamates while claiming their foods are "msg-free".

I'm MSG sensitive, and I react to anything similar, even that found naturally in foods.
I have read recently that one of the problems is that there is a deficiency of certain enzymes need to metabolize this stuff. My conclusion to that is that the initial massive dose of MSG that I got in soy sauce - has destroyed my enzyme system.

[Hufnagel]

Hello all--This subject really ought to be cleared up, as I have heard confusing tidbits about it over the years many times. The way I read your article, it sounded as if MSG was a hidden ingredient in the listed ingredients, as if the law somehow didn't require them to be listed. What I have heard in the past is that many of these items have free glutamates in them, which can cause an allergic reaction in MSG-sensitive people, but MSG per se is not actually added to them. My understanding is that the ingredients listed in the article are like this. The thing that we want to know is how much glutamate content is in each food, not just which ones have it. Please clarify.

[Dr. Lee]

I got a phone call today from Solgar. They told me that their processes do not create MSG because they use no sodium. So even though free forms of glutamic amino acids are in the formula, there is nothing for them to bind with to make the dangerous form of MSG. Now this may not be the case with cheap formulas widely available. In my opinion, I would check for sodium content on the nutrition label. If it has sodium, it could bind with the glutamic acids and form MSG unintentionally. At any rate, it is something to watch our for when buying protein powder. This rule of thumb can actually apply to other protein powders as well - not just whey. You must watch out for it in soy especially, but it may also be in pea protein powder.....

The sodium has nothing to do with the activity of monosodium glutamate. The instant that MSG dissolves in water, the sodium separates and the glutamate ion is free. It is the glutamate ion that is a neurotransmitter, and acts to amplify the sensitivity of taste buds. If there is no sodium or potassium in the hydrolyzed protein, then a hydrogen atom is bound to the glutamate. But once dissolved in water, the hydrogen ion separates immediately, leaving the free glutamate ion.

So, whoever at Solgar gave you this reply was misinformed. ALL forms of hydrolyzed protein contain glutamate ion; but free glutamate per se is not a hazard --- it's the quantity. Heck, when proteins are digested in your stomach, free glutamate is released.

The reason Bragg's Amino Acids and other amino acid products make food taste good is the glutamate effect, which acts not as a nutrient or flavor but as a neural drug altering the perception of other flavors. In hydrolyzed protein, lots of other free amino acids are present besides glutamate, making it more dilute.

But highly concentrated solutions of free amino acids are not something our species has ever experienced in its evolution. In short, it's unnatural. It's when we range outside of the environment we evolved in that we get novel benefits (like MSG's flavor effects) and novel harms.

[toxouts]

I got a phone call today from Solgar. They told me that their processes do not create MSG because they use no sodium. So even though free forms of glutamic amino acids are in the formula, there is nothing for them to bind with to make the dangerous form of MSG. Now this may not be the case with cheap formulas widely available. In my opinion, I would check for sodium content on the nutrition label. If it has sodium, it could bind with the glutamic acids and form MSG unintentionally. At any rate, it is something to watch our for when buying protein powder. This rule of thumb can actually apply to other protein powders as well - not just whey. You must watch out for it in soy especially, but it may also be in pea protein powder.....

It is *vital* for you to understand that sodium is not what makes MSG bad -- it's the glutamate!

With MSG (monosodium glutamate) the lone sodium molecule easily breaks away from the glutamate protein molecule after ingestion.

Glutamate receptors exist throughout the body (most abundantly in the brain but also in the heart, stomach, and plenty of other parts) -- and the free glutamate is a potent excitotoxin at these neurotransmitters.

It is misleading and disingenuous for the Solgar rep to explain it the way you have written. It shows a total misunderstanding of the problem. Formation of MSG in their product is not the issue -- the presence of free glutamine/glutamate/glutamic acid is the issue!

If you ask, "Is there MSG in your product?" they can truthfully answer, "No."

But the product does still contain excitotoxins, and *that* is what you need to be concerned about.

More here http://www.sailhome.org/Concerns/Excitotoxins.html

[SondraB]

Lots of good information on glutamate and MSG here.

One thing that perhaps distinguishes whey protein from other protein powders - it contains a lot of glutamate in it, as does gluten (hence its name). So though MSG isn't added to whey protein powders (unless labeled as such), the breakdwon of whey protein into its component amino acids will release a lot of glutamate. those sensitive to MSG may have reactions to whey or gluten breakdown products.http://organicconsumers.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

[SondraB]

[quote name='SondraB' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:02 AM' post='9888']
Lots of good information on glutamate and MSG here.

One thing that perhaps distinguishes whey protein from other protein powders - it contains a lot of glutamate in it, as does gluten (hence its name). So though MSG isn't added to whey protein powders (unless labeled as such), the breakdwon of whey protein into its component amino acids will release a lot of glutamate. those sensitive to MSG may have reactions to whey or gluten breakdown products

[organically grow...]

Due to the recent email from OCA covering MSG, I was very alarmed to learn that whey protein, especially in isolate and hydrolyzed form are basically forms of this substance. I just puchased Solgar "Whey to go" at my local health store, Mount Hope Foods. Does anyone know the relationship/safety of whey protein powders, since they are associated with MSG?

I purchase packaged wet seaweed imported from China and it is packed in salt which needs to be rinsed prior to consumption. Does the combination of the salt and the glut... in the seaweed form msg?

[bkqscc]

All of this becomes confusing, especially when just finding out that this issue exists.

I am hesitant to contact a manufacturer because they have a financial agenda and need to sell product; manufacturers will generally focus on the "positive" information and encourage the use of their product.

I currently use Jarrow Formulas 100% Natural Unflavored Whey Protein with ingredient list as 100% Ultrafiltered Whey Protein from milk with the addition of some minor amount of lecithin from soy.

Sodium is listed, and the "Amino Acid Profile" lists Glutamine + Glutamic Acid.

Essentially, does this mean that this formula contains or is producing excitotoxins?

[ruthiegirl]

If you avoid highly processed foods such as protein powders, you don't need to worry about MSG or any other unhealthy chemicals produced in food processing. Why use whey protein powder at all? Why not get your protien from whole foods instead?

[Dancerman]

I read the report too, and it also had "Anything Ultra-Pasteurized" on the list. The only milk I buy right is organic and it doesn't come in any form other than Ultra Pasteurized, at least in my neck of Michigan. Anyone know if the gluamate problem exists in organic milk now???

[bkqscc]

Why use whey protein powder at all? Why not get your protien from whole foods instead?

We maintain a diet of organic whole foods, but they are unable to adequately supply the amount of protein we need.

We are involved in sports that require extra protein, but we avoid the chemical and steroidal avenues that many choose out of convenience.

Whey protein seems benign, especially when compared with synthetic substances.

So does anyone have any suggestions as to how to discern whether whey proteins actually contain or mutate into excitotoxins?

[tater_chip]

Well this is quite a conundrum! I am glad to be getting some info from those of you who may know a bit more about this. So far the consensus is the Solgar may not be completely forthcoming. I wish there were a scientist who knew this and could put this to rest.

[allnaturalme]

Good point Ruthiegirl -

I'm generally with you, except last week as I was feeling very depleted as a lactating vegetarian mama, I did entertain the thought of supplementing my diet with a protein drink. Now after reading this thread, I'll probably toss that idea for now and just try to make time to eat more.

[bkqscc]

I found a vegan Rice Protein today while shopping at Whole Foods. It is manufactured by NutriBiotic www.nutribiotic.com. I am going to investigate and try as alternative to whey protein. Hopefully it will turn out to have no glutamate issues.

Also, this is an interesting msg article http://www.NaturalNews.com/026157.html; suggest everyone take a few moments to read it.

[radicalmom]

oooohhh... i wish it would be so simple to find the right supplement for all our uses! if you use rice protien, is it organic? if it isn't then it is gmo. if a supplemental powder is not manufactured using organic ingredientsm, then you are using gmo products or at least products that have been heavily sprayed. i just tried to google a nutrition chart. much too much advertising. the usda has compiled charts that list foods and their vitamin and mineral content per serving. there are copious foods out there that supply sufficient protein. even peanut butter. sunflower seeds, quinoa....... the list is long. there is no need to use powders and fillers when food will suffice. if i find it, i will add it as a comment.


ok, here is a chart. http://www.soystache.com/plant.htm#Source

in my opinion, it is obviously biased towards the use of soy. i advise no soy whatsoever, but that is my own prejudice.

[bkqscc]

The rice protein powder I mentioned before is organic brown rice, HOWEVER, it lists glutamic acid as one of the "naturally occurring amino acids" AND the glutamic acid is the largest percentage of all the amino acids contained.

The label implies (at least to me) that the processing is all natural and specifies that it uses organic enzymes and low heat processes.

I wonder at this point if in fact our bodies actually break down these proteins into these same components listed on the label, including glutamic acid, but then perhaps have specific avenues to process these compounds into non-toxic elements; more research needed on this one.

I guess it is back to square one.